Detroit's 2020 35 mpg Challenge

[Kitdy]

I'm in the middle of reading an article about Detroit adapting to the new CAFE standards. It doesn't really reveal anything shocking or surprising but I am enjoying reading it and figure that it's pretty applicable on a car forum.

Enjoy.

[ruim20]

Just read it, it shows that the big 3 have a long way to go just to match the current european engine standard, even longer way in the diesel front, still it's good news, lets see how long till the 35 limit changes to something lower...

[harddrivin1le]

Just read it, it shows that the big 3 have a long way to go just to match the current european engine standard, even longer way in the diesel front, still it's good news, lets see how long till the 35 limit changes to something lower...

Please explain how the article "shows" that.

On average, cars in the US are larger and use more powerful engines, in large part because fuel is much cheaper.

For a vehicle of any given weight and power level, the Euro cars (and engines) have no advantage over their American counterparts in terms of fuel economy.

[2ndclasscitizen]

On average, cars in the US are larger and use more powerful engines, in large part because fuel is much cheaper.

That's the point. Getting US cars to not be these things will go a long way to reaching this 35mpg target.

[Matra et Alpine]

For a vehicle of any given weight and power level, the Euro cars (and engines) have no advantage over their American counterparts in terms of fuel economy.

An excellent engineering insight, hd.

BUT, look at it from a market ( not technical ) viewpoint.
In transporting families from A to B in acceptable comfort and cost then he's right

[ruim20]

DA2. Diesels are good but they have issues beyond just the EPA. Currently there aren’t many diesel stations off the highway. That’s kind of a pain to have to figure out where all the diesel stations are. Sure, it’s not like I’m trying to find E85 but still, I can’t just assume the nearest station will have it. Also, diesel fuel smells and is oily if you step in it or get any on your car/clothes etc. Finally, around here diesel costs about 15% more. Between having to pay a lot more for a diesel motor and more for the fuel it doesn’t seem like that great a plan.

-sorry for editing-

You have got a 10/20 year old image of diesel cars and i guess that's what the majority of US driver think about diesels, In my country and like i said before, 50% of the cars on the road are diesels, technology as advanced so much in few years, modern diesel haven't got the smeel you describe and have become less polutent than lower capacity gas engines.

[NSXType-R]

It's just a requirement for automakers for better fuel economy.

I've also heard from you guys that it's utter garbage.

What's wrong with better fuel economy?

[ruim20]

It's just a requirement for automakers for better fuel economy.

I've also heard from you guys that it's utter garbage.

What's wrong with better fuel economy?

I just think it's to optimist asking for 6.7l/100kms (35m/gal) in the USA.

And even being optimist it's a ridiculous number having a lot of european cars already achiveved that kind of mileage. that goal should be set for the next 5 years so it would be more par with the Euro/Asian engines in the same period.

[Ferrer]

But do European (or Asian) cars actually achieve that average?

[ruim20]

But do European (or Asian) cars actually achieve that average?

"some" of them do, ofc that the average of all of them is going to be much higher, probably on the 8/9L - 100kms , just guessing. for petrol cars, if it where combine with the diesel ones that already have a 50% market share in Portugal, probably close in the rest of europe, thoose numbers would drop to about 7/8L.

Just guessing ofc but no doubt a lower consuption than USA made cars.

[culver]

Better fuel economy is a good goal. It's the way they want to go about doing it. Europe didn't need fuel economy goals because gas was/is expensive. People in Europe choose to drive high mileage vehicles because it saves them money.

Gas in the US is relatively cheep. The problem with CAFE is the government is telling the car companies to make high mileage cars but the trade offs needed to get high mileage don't align with consumer demand. Take a car like the Chrysler 300 with a V8. This is a V8 powered sedan with good power, reasonable comfort etc that a typical US family might be able to afford. While it does consume more gas than say a Toyota Camry or Corolla, the extra gas bill isn't so high that it's just unaffordable for someone who can spend the ~$30k to buy the car. So there is at least some demand for that type of car. The new CAFE standard will all but kill that sort of car because it will be hard to make a profit on that type of car and meet CAFE standards.
Basically, you have a case where car companies are told they can't sell what consumers are asking for.

However, I believe I am correct in saying Europe historically has had no "mileage" regulations. This may be changing but historically European consumers have always demanded (on average) good mileage because the cost of gas was so high.

BTW, in the early days of CAFE in the US, gas was very high after the second oil embargo. The fleet average of new cars sales in those years actually exceeded the CAFE rules. Basically when consumers saw gas was expensive they wanted higher mileage cars. I assure you if US gas prices were similar to those in say England or Germany we would likely be driving cars that got mileage similar to what people get in Europe. The one difference I could see is that we still aren't space constrained. Beyond mileage a small car is an attribute in Europe simply for parking reasons. In the US, most of the time (not true in all places) we have plenty of space to maneuver and park our cars.

Still I suspect you would find the US consumer and auto sellers (both domestic and foreign selling in the US) would sell cars a lot more like what is sold in Europe if our gasoline and diesel fuel prices were similar. Personally, I would rather the US raise the price of gas rather than play CAFE games.

[Ferrer]

cuvler you say that if the Chrysler 300C sells it's because it has a market for it. Fair enough, but don't you think there are other cars that can still capture the Chrysler's market while being much more fuel efficient?

Take the Ford Mondeo Turbo for instance. It has bigger boot, it's taller and wider and a little shorter. It has a 220bhp 2.5-litre turbocharged 5 cylinder. Top speed is 245km/h (152mph) and does 0-100km/h (0-62mph) in 7"5 seconds. Average fuel consumption is 9,3l/100km (25mpg). And it weights some 348kg less than Chrysler. Furthermore it's quite a lot cheaper than the Chrysler.

It still doesn't met the standards, but don't you think that a change of mentality is needed in the US if they want to met the standards? They are still going to get the "same" just differently from what they are used too probably.

[VtecMini]

That's like, 42mpg imperial, right? And this is considered completely impossible? Even with over a decade to get there?

Wow. Just wow.

[culver]

It's not a mater of does the technology exist. It's a mater of changing the production plans and product mix slowly as to not cause a shock to the industry. It's not as simple as just saying next year we have to stop buying low mileage vehicles and start buying high mileage cars. I think a number of people miss that point.

[Ferrer]

It's not a mater of does the technology exist. It's a mater of changing the production plans and product mix slowly as to not cause a shock to the industry. It's not as simple as just saying next year we have to stop buying low mileage vehicles and start buying high mileage cars. I think a number of people miss that point.

But US industry already has the technology. Look at european offerings of Ford and General Motors, fast, frugal and practical. They could offer those cars in their domestic market. It's not a matter of making huge investments, the investments have already been done actually.

I think the problem lies within the typical american costumer. Is he/she prepared to change misconceptions regarding cars that achieve similar results to what they are used to, yet differently? Furthermore, are they prepared to pay extra money for better cars? I think that's the main problem.