Detroit's 2020 35 mpg Challenge

[culver]

I know they have the technology. However, remember an overnight change would involve changing factories, production numbers etc. Tooling to produce the larger vehicles would become obsolete long before it was planned to be. Basically it would be a very bad macro-economic idea to change too rapidly.

Also, the problem is definitely NOT with the consumer. The consumer does what is in his or her best interest. Look at all the smelly diesels Europe had in the 70s and 80s. Air quality would have been much better if people just were willing to pay a bit extra for a clean burning gas car. Well they didn't because diesel was cheaper.

I would be just as incorrect to say that Spain was under a dictator simply because the people of Spain didn't know they would be better off with a different government. That completely ignores the costs and difficulties involved in changing. If that example is too far off feel free to ignore it.

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

[Ferrer]

I know they have the technology. However, remember an overnight change would involve changing factories, production numbers etc. Tooling to produce the larger vehicles would become obsolete long before it was planned to be. Basically it would be a very bad macro-economic idea to change too rapidly.

Also, the problem is definitely NOT with the consumer. The consumer does what is in his or her best interest. Look at all the smelly diesels Europe had in the 70s and 80s. Air quality would have been much better if people just were willing to pay a bit extra for a clean burning gas car. Well they didn't because diesel was cheaper.

I would be just as incorrect to say that Spain was under a dictator simply because the people of Spain didn't know they would be better off with a different government. That completely ignores the costs and difficulties involved in changing. If that example is too far off feel free to ignore it.

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

I agree with you on the steep change. Of course when it comes to profitability and economics it's better to let a model's life-cycle rather than change it midway through that's a given. But take the Mk 1 Focus, ford had a winner and when the time came to get a replacement for it, a better car, what did Ford do? They introduced the Mk 2 in Europe and instead produced a million facelifts for the Mk 1 for the US. That leads me to believe that either Ford is wrong, or the consumers are fine with a 10 year old car. That may seem to prove my point that american consumers prefer to trade price for excellence. The live rear axles and 4 speed autos also seem to head in this direction.

I'm not saying we are better because we have high-tech cars and you aren't because your cars are less advanced. It's just different needs.

Let me ask a question, how many americans would pay $19,000 (before taxes) for a 115bhp 5 door hatch with a 5-speed manual? May I guess not many?

[Kitdy]

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

That being said, I think that many American, hell Canadians as well have many hang ups about certain cars still; less so in Canada than in the States however. I would wager than in many lower and middle class rural areas in the States, especially in the South and Mid-West Americans take pride in buying American cars even if they are inferior in build quality to their typically Japanese competitors.

I think in general it is safe to assume that the United States exhibits a pride in home made products more than Europeans do, especially when it comes to cars - however this is only a cultural observation I have made and this could be incorrect. This possible pro-American bias that is exhibited in many rural areas probably results in a significant portion of entry level sales for the Big 3. Surprisingly enough, the bias also exists in rural Canada as well - you are much less likely to see Corollas and Civics in small town Ontario.

Unfortunately I have something I don't like doing, making generalizations without hard facts, making assumptions, and using trends to make extrapolations. I could have not said anything at all, but I think there is likely truth in my words and I wanted to illustrate that for sure, the consumer definitely does not always make the most intelligent decision apparent for them. Brand loyalty plays a strong part in many buyers decisions and as I think is clear, brand loyalty is certainly not always a solid indicator of quality.

As for another example, I could have used the upper middle and uper class's North Americans penchant for expensive non-US cars such as Lexus, Acura, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. Though these cars in the past 10 or so years were superior in build quality to their American counterparts from companies like Buick and Cadillac, these brands have now leveled the playing field and have to struggle to fight against the non-US's cars customers brand allegiance and perceived superior quality for imports. Counter this with premium American cars costing sometimes significantly less, and you can see that the consumer is probably letting bias take hold of them when they purchase a car like an M5 over an STS-V.

In Canada at least, BMWs dominance of the entry level premium car market is near total and has been for some years. I think the newly redesigned CTS despite all it's rave reviews will have a difficult time making a dent in the 3-series' reign as kind of the market.

This only yet again goes to show that consumers are not necessarily intelligent with their money and make many foolish choices.

Let me ask a question, how many americans would pay $19,000 (before taxes) for a 115bhp 5 door hatch with a 5-speed manual? May I guess not many?

Why does everyone forget Canada? We have very similar tastes that Americans do but when ever a European/North American discussion breaks out, people seem to forget the 30 million odd people up North. I suppose Mexico is also part of North America, but for cultural reasons it is easier to associate it with Central America.

[Ferrer]

Why does everyone forget Canada? We have very similar tastes that Americans do but when ever a European/North American discussion breaks out, people seem to forget the 30 million odd people up North. I suppose Mexico is also part of North America, but for cultural reasons it is easier to associate it with Central America.

Ok, so would canadians pay such money for such car?

[culver]

I think in general it is safe to assume that the United States exhibits a pride in home made products more than Europeans do, especially when it comes to cars - however this is only a cultural observation I have made and this could be incorrect.

I have heard the opposite. I suspect it's case by case. I have known people who seem to take pride in things that are not domestic. Perhaps it stems from the days when domestic goods were the common, mass produced stuff while imports were the high dollar rare items. I also have known people who want domestic because it's domestic.

I suspect we would find the spread on the "local bias" bell curve is very wide.