Super Moderator
As CAFE works on the number of cars sold, clearly all a manufacturer has to do is to introduce a very VERY cheap high mpg rated car to offset the current consumption.
So .... look forward to a Tata Nano being sold for $1 with every SUV in the coming years.
CAFE doesn't say the owner has to DRIVE the better fuel consumption only BUY it.
I fully expect the big US manufacturers to exploit that kind of loophole the same way they did with the SUV market
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
Super Moderator
A+ on Econmics 101Originally Posted by Kitdy
You#'ve described the last 50 years of the European car market !
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
Furniture
The question is will such a car even sell in the North American market? The car would have to be very sybarite and the average car user here is getting used to a gradual increase in luxury, would they really accept a cheaper (in more ways than one) alternative? Dirt cheap high fuel economy cars are already present in the market and they simply do not sell as well as their more expensive counterparts.As CAFE works on the number of cars sold, clearly all a manufacturer has to do is to introduce a very VERY cheap high mpg rated car to offset the current consumption.
So .... look forward to a Tata Nano being sold for $1 with every SUV in the coming years.
CAFE doesn't say the owner has to DRIVE the better fuel consumption only BUY it.
I fully expect the big US manufacturers to exploit that kind of loophole the same way they did with the SUV market
Furthermore, as long as the theoretical cheap car sells alongside the SUV, average emissions will still be down. This is a good thing. I don't really think it is a loophole in the rules per se, but simply an acknowledgment of practicality.
Furniture
I think that in this discussion we have to take into account that the 35mpg is a given. It's something that manufacturers will have to comply with (unless the government changes the law or something), regardless of cheap or expensive petrol. Perhaps, as some people have suggested, taxating petrol higher would be a better solution but I don't think that's the main point here. The main point is, how will the manufacturers make it? And how will the consumers react to it?
I think the first obvious thing to consider is that it is easier to make an Aveo get a 35mpg than an Impala. Therefore very probably the modifications on the bigger car will be more expensive which in turn will push its price higher up than the smaller car. American and Canadian consumers, used to their big cars (and I guess we could include truck here as well) will very probably be reluctant to this move. But the thing is given the regulations, that's what they'll have to face.
Also we have to consider that we look at the problems from our (biased) petrolhead point of view. In reality I doubt the vast majority of people care much about 0-60 times or top speed. As long as their car does the job they are satisfied. And in fact they even have different requirements from ours. They probably like to feel they are "saving the world", since it's now cool, and as a result will probably pay extra for green cars rather than performance variants. That would probably explain the Prius phenomenon in the US.
I also think that your analysis Kitdy is a bit too extreme. Why go from an Aveo to an Impala? There’s a vast array of possibilities between the extremes and perhaps in the average lies the equilibrium. A Ford Mondeo is perfectly capable of achieving the 35mpg and it is quite a lot bigger than the Aveo. Furthermore US manufacturers will probably learn and adopt technologies from their European subsidiaries or develop new ones themselves. Examples of this are the hybrids, the introduction of clean diesels or the hydrogen powered Volt, due to be introduced in 2010.
My prediction is that what we’ll probably see is a general downsize for costumers. Such as those who bought an Impala will now choose a Malibu, those who bought a Malibu will settle for a Cobalt and those with a Cobalt will now have an Aveo. What this probably means is that the full-size American car will maybe just be a memory in a not-so-distant future. Cadillac discontinuing V8s is definitely an interesting indicator.
Lack of charisma can be fatal.
Visca Catalunya!
Super Moderator
Ah perhaps I needed to explain it more.
The $1 car is ONLY there to make the CAFE average better. THe owner NEVER drives it, he/she keeps it in the drive.
It's why tasxation/limits on per-car basis seldom works to improve environment or usage numbers.
Again, as the "better MPG" car improves the CAFE average then everyone thinks they are meeting better standards. But the reality is that the small car is NEVER used so the more luxurious gas-guzzler is bought BECAUSE the dealer can sell it as long as he/she also sells the $1 Tata. CAFE numbers look great ... real world figures get worse. Hence my refernec to the insanity of the US SUV market -- it's not a "car" it's a "truck"Furthermore, as long as the theoretical cheap car sells alongside the SUV, average emissions will still be down. This is a good thing. I don't really think it is a loophole in the rules per se, but simply an acknowledgment of practicality.
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
Member
Please explain how the article "shows" that.
On average, cars in the US are larger and use more powerful engines, in large part because fuel is much cheaper.
For a vehicle of any given weight and power level, the Euro cars (and engines) have no advantage over their American counterparts in terms of fuel economy.
Fanatic
That's the point. Getting US cars to not be these things will go a long way to reaching this 35mpg target.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
– Hunter Thompson
Super Moderator
An excellent engineering insight, hd.
BUT, look at it from a market ( not technical ) viewpoint.
In transporting families from A to B in acceptable comfort and cost then he's right
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
Enthusiast
the point is not necesarily innefecient engines (hmm pretty sure diesel has advantage though) but oversize/weight cars! Also its not like non-amercian cars are that light, a recent trend means that many cars are pretty big and heavy, take the new mondeo for example.
Last edited by jediali; 01-30-2008 at 07:00 AM.
autozine.org
Enthusiast
-sorry for editing-
You have got a 10/20 year old image of diesel cars and i guess that's what the majority of US driver think about diesels, In my country and like i said before, 50% of the cars on the road are diesels, technology as advanced so much in few years, modern diesel haven't got the smeel you describe and have become less polutent than lower capacity gas engines.
"Religious belief is the “path of least resistance”, says Boyer, while disbelief requires effort."
Enthusiast
I know I have an old image of diesel. I was playing devil's advocate. However, some of the points are still legit. The smell isn't referring to exhaust but the fuel when I'm filling up. If any fuel gets on you, your shoes or clothes it doesn't evaporate quickly like gasoline. Instead the smell lingers.
The relative lack of filling stations is real. Its a problem that would go away if more people were driving diesels but if I bought one tomorrow I wouldn't expect it to get better in the next year. Perhaps in the next 5 to 10 years.
Also, for all the improvements in emissions I have not seen anything that indicates that they are lower in emissions save for CO2.
In the end we still have a motor that costs more, really provides no better driving experiance than a gas motor, and has a number of other drawbacks. It does have better mileage but that advantage is somewhat offset by the fact that diesel currently costs more than gasoline in the US and because I have to pay more for the diesel motor and because fuel prices still are relatively low here.
I'm not saying diesels are bad but for consumers to embrace them we need to address the issues with them.
As a footnote, when I was in Japan about 9 years ago I don't recall seeing many diesel cars. Lots of diesel trucks but I don't recall Japan having such a love for diesels like Europe.
Enthusiast
Like i said, 50% of our cars are diesel and rising, so many ppl can't be wrong, and they certanly aren't bothered for the ocasional spill, and yes modern diesels are less pollutent than lower capacity gas engines and provide more power, check the new diesels with particle filters (ToyotaD4D, Peugeot Citroen HDI etc...) They are even starting to be used in Sports cars Ex: BMW 635d.
The real problem you guys have is the lack of stations that can provide "modern" diesel
"Religious belief is the “path of least resistance”, says Boyer, while disbelief requires effort."
Furniture
It's not a question of being wrong or right, it's just a question of buying whatever suits your needs. In Europe diesels are big because, as has been said, fuel prices are high. As simple as that. Had petrol prices been lower I doubt we would see as many diesels.Like i said, 50% of our cars are diesel and rising, so many ppl can't be wrong, and they certanly aren't bothered for the ocasional spill, and yes modern diesels are less pollutent than lower capacity gas engines and provide more power, check the new diesels with particle filters (ToyotaD4D, Peugeot Citroen HDI etc...) They are even starting to be used in Sports cars Ex: BMW 635d.
The real problem you guys have is the lack of stations that can provide "modern" diesel
And that's what happens across the pond. They have lower fuel prices, and actually diesel is more expensive than petrol, hence diesel there makes little sense.
Lack of charisma can be fatal.
Visca Catalunya!
Enthusiast
While I do not have a chart of what pollutants are emitted by what, but consider that automakers have had an easier time getting gasoline cars to meet US and California emission standards. Even with low sulfur diesel which we are now adopting it takes a lot more in the way of emissions equipment to get diesels to meet the standards. Perhaps this is a case of “which emissions do we care about?”.
Either way, the point about fuel prices is a big one. If diesel is cheaper and fuel prices are high, yes diesel motors would be a good choice. They were relatively popular in Europe even when they were smelly, noisy things. They were also briefly becoming popular in the US when gas was more expensive than diesel and fuel prices were near historic highs in the late 70s. When fuel prices fell in the 80s, they lost their luster.
These days I think a diesel gets what about 30% better real world mileage than a gasoline motor of similar power? But the fuel costs about 15% more (not an exact number). The engine also costs a lot more initially. So I do save money on fuel but it takes a long time and in the mean time I have spent more and have a motor that in most ways is at best just equal to the gas motor. That’s not a compelling argument.
Ferrer is spot on when in saying people buy what suits their needs and in Europe diesels do a better job of suiting people's needs. In North America our circumstances are different and thus our needs are different. Ultimately our buying habits are different.
Enthusiast
This is true, and why Ford, for instance, was selling every Focus at a loss in the US.As CAFE works on the number of cars sold, clearly all a manufacturer has to do is to introduce a very VERY cheap high mpg rated car to offset the current consumption.
So .... look forward to a Tata Nano being sold for $1 with every SUV in the coming years.
CAFE doesn't say the owner has to DRIVE the better fuel consumption only BUY it.
I fully expect the big US manufacturers to exploit that kind of loophole the same way they did with the SUV market
You could make a similar argument about hybrids, as far as economics go, and many already have, yet they're still becoming more and more popular. We'll see I guess.
An it harm none, do as ye will
Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.
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